Let’s Discuss . . . About Homosexuality As A Sin?
So we have decided to introduce a discussion session on Kito Diaries. It’s become apparent that there are a lot of intellectuals amongst us, and it will be nice if we can test those intellects and push the boundaries of our minds. It’s a foregone conclusion that words are a powerful tool, so it wouldn’t hurt to bandy them around in an attempt, however infinitesimal, however seemingly negligible, to make the world – for us – a better place.
And so, for today’s segment, we want us to talk about that thorny issue that was triggered by Trystham’s TEARS ON MY PILLOW (Read HERE). And the topic is this:
Do you believe Homosexuality is a sin? If yes or no, tell us why you think so.
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58 Comments
Chizzie
June 14, 07:27Homosexuality from a religious angle, will always be a sin. The concept of sinning itself is a religious concept, The word “sin” was invented by religion.
my dictionary defines Sin as : ” a transgression of the law of God; a vitiated state of human nature in which one is estranged from God”
it is not a legal term or a civil term, it is purely religious.
if we continue to judge homosexuality based on a religious parameters and terms like sin then we leave little room for discussion .
so the premise of your question is flawed, the question should be, is Homosexuality WRONG? . then we can have a real debate,
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 07:35That stance you’re taking effectively substantiates the reason why everyone struggling to come to terms with his gay sexuality should feel guilt. That simply by the mere fact of you being gay, you are a candidate for hell fire. Never mind that you don’t sleep around or that you are still coming to terms with your sexuality. Oh no, You’re Gay, and therefore You’re Hell-bound, right Chizzie?
But if you’re straight, then of course you have a chance of making heaven. All if you have to do is cross your Christian ts and dot your Christian is, no?
Chizzie
June 14, 08:15The thing with religion and its dogma is that It is frigid and inflexible. .it doesn’t accommodate change. It is also very archaic, religious laws came thousands of years ago in primitive times. so if homosexuals want to subject themselves and in doing so feel guilty abt what an archaic and I dare say outdated system thinks of them, then they can go ahead.
I hate that when we discuss the moral behind homosexuality we always bring religion. if we want to be truly liberated from homophobia and all that we must discuss homosexuality from other standpoints not just religion. that’s the point im trying to come across.
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 08:19But you see, I said Sin, and you roped in Religion. I could be trying to draw a parallel with Christianity which in my opinion is vastly different from Religion.
Chuck
June 14, 11:32Sorry pinkpanther but you have this one wrong. The idea of sin is a Christian one. And the Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin. Your debate should be over whether the Bible is infallible. The Bible doesn’t recognize gay or straight, it just forbids sodomy. I guess you can be gay if you only kiss.
Deola
June 14, 08:20Although the Bible does condemn Homosexuality and there is that whole story about Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus himself never outrightly said anything about it.
Islam on the other hand outrightly states what it is, condemns it and even goes as far as to state the punishment for the sin if one doesn’t repent and cease from the act.
I am a Muslim and while I believe in the Koran and my religion preaches that I have no choice but to believe and accept whatever it teaches there is a lot of stuff in it that I don’t agree with.
My opinion of religion is that it was made for people of that time and its not at all compatible with us right now.
My religion prohibits me from listening to music, and says whoever steals should have their wrist chopped off. I don’t agree with that and I don’t think most Muslims in the 21st century would.
I believe in being kind and just to people, if you put good out there it comes back to you; those are my main principles. I didn’t choose being gay, intact there were times were i wished death upon myself than to live like this, but I have a hard a tine believing in a God that made me this way if his intention was to punish me for something I have absolutely no control over.
All in all Religion will always see homosexuality as a sin, its up to us to think outside the box of what has been fed to us
Regal Sweetheart
June 15, 10:51Hi Deola. The Bible expressly states that Homosexuality is a sin AND whoever practices it should/will be cut off from his people (Lev 18:22,29).
*to everyone else* However,the bible also said Men should not trim the side of their beards, or sleep with another Man’s wife, or divorce their wives(except on the count of adultery on her part)….and that adulterers should be stoned to death,among other laws. If we absolve some part of the law,should we not absolve other parts of it?
And this,my brethren,is why I avoid the controversial topic of Homosexuality. I am a Christian, one who fears and loves God but…..*you know the rest*
CeeCee
June 15, 23:28Regal Sweetheart, by avoiding the topic, you’re simply playing ostrich and avoiding tackling the issue at hand. You have clearly illustrated the hypocrisy and contradiction of especially the old testament. I understand that its hard to tear yourself away from what youve known all your life and grown accustomed to, it is too scary for you tp even contemplate any alternative. Yet, I urge you to listen to that small persistent voice that speaks up inside of you every now and then, explore its nuances and it’s depths and over time you might find it has a lot of sense to teach you … well, to each his own, and whatever helps you sleep better at night …
Absalom
June 14, 08:35Chizzie has said it all. “Sin” is a religious concept. I do not care for it. It has no place in the real world of real people ready for real life.
I have read many pro-gay rhetorics where Christians try to argue that god wasn’t condemning same – sex love but prostitution between males and all whatnot. Dishonest! The Bible is clear on homosexuality. The Bible is flawed. I’m not having any of its shit. Yet to each his own.
Absalom
June 14, 08:42Jesus Christ’s teachings on marriage and god’s original plan never left room for an alternative sexuality to heterosexuality abeg. To be sure, he wouldn’t have been homophobic, but to entertain the idea that JC would have endorsed homosexuality? No.
CeeCee
June 14, 08:47Yum yum! A juicy topic for a saturday morning,*licks intellectual lips*… I need to ponder this for a few hours as well as see more comments b4 I wade in, so gurls, plz keep the smartness rolling in …
Chizzie
June 14, 08:51I am not a girl. *tears shirt*
CeeCee
June 14, 09:14Yea, should I help you tear the bra underneath your shirt ….
Caligula
June 14, 10:58Chizzie has said it all.
Lanre Swagg
June 14, 12:35Chizzie was so profound. I’ve never heard it put quite that way. Hmm. I see many people struggling to even comprehend his reasoning. Religion is such a powerful overlord.
Anyway… I could ask you to study the language of the biblical story about David & Jonathan which even the Bishop TD Jakes has acknowledged as a gay story- though he says it doesn’t prove the bible supports being gay.
Rather, I dwell on first hand experience- I walk with God every day and till the day he kicks me out himself, I will not accept rejection by religious institutions. On the contrary, He’s been very kind to me. I like to think of the saying that Religion is man’s way of reaching out to God, as opposed to Spirituality- which is individual and relationship based.
Gay people are often very spiritual – and that is explained in African Traditional Religion as symbolic of our being the gatekeepers between the spirit realm and this world.
Esu, the Yoruba god of trickery ( not same as biblical satan) has homosexual qualities.
The braided hair of Shango, god of Thunder is suggestive of bisexuality. Likewise, similar braids on Ode, the cult of hunters who live deep in the forests without female company for long periods, or of the naked all-male Egungun masquerade cult that must not be seen by women, are all suggestive of the undiscussed sides of traditional spirituality and sexuality.
In conclusion, spirituality and sexuality do not have to be at odds. For the unpretentious few, the 2 might actually mean the same thing.
blood line
June 14, 13:00I will say the content of the holy books has nothing to do with GOD.if we believe he is Supreme and above all things which invariably mean he doesn’t SIN.
Basically these books are for us his creation to know how to live amongst ourselves.its just like a guide book for us to live in peace.so the issue of SIN I dnt think it has to do with GOD if we agree he is supreme.
Marthy
June 14, 13:01So much for intellectual discussion. This rant about sin being a religious concept is the most shallow thing I’ve heard in a long time because the issue is about the wrongness and rightness of something; and I wonder what ‘sin’ is. I have said elsewhere that whoever has not read the chapter on family in the text Fagothey’s Right and Reason by Milton Gonsalves has no place talking about the ethics of homosexuality. This platform here is just too tiny a place for this. And please guys, go do some reading before you come to us with your ‘intellectual’ rambling.
Lothario
June 14, 13:57Lol! I love this….intellectual snobbery! It doesn’t get any better…hahahahaha
Chizzie
June 14, 14:56Hang on, just cause you, by some chance read a book that no one has heard of , doesn’t give you the right to sound condescending. You saying no one has the right to voice an opinion because they haven’t read a particular book is not only a huge fallacy but extremely dense.
And…
If you think this forum is too tiny for such a discussion then start your own blog and drop your two cents in a dustbin where it belongs.
martinchinagorom@yahoo.com
June 14, 15:42I have always seen yours as the most shallow in this blog. FYI I didn’t read the book by chance. It is is recommended reading on said issue and I suggest you do to unclog your skull and maybe put back an ounce of brain where it should beâ. Get some education, twerp. It helps!!! Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: kitodiariesSent: Saturday, 14 June 2014 10:56 AMTo: martinchinagorom@yahoo.comReply To: kitodiariesSubject: [New comment] Let’s Discuss . . . About Homosexuality As A Sin?
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Chizzie commented: “Hang on, just cause you, by some chance read a book that no one has heard of , doesn’t give you the right to sound condescending. You saying no one has the right to voice an opinion because they haven’t read a particular book is not only a huge fallacy b”
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 16:14Y’all realize that we can actually have an intelligent disagreement of opinions without resorting to name-calling, right?
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 16:03Marthy, try not to condescend so much. That one hasn’t got to your level of intellectual superiority doesn’t make them any less well versed in a topic.
sensuousensei
June 14, 20:08Since we are recommending books, I shd recommend one. Emotional intelligence: why it can matter more than IQ by Daniel Goleman.
Lothario
June 14, 14:09In my opinion, sin is when you go contrary to basic rules you’re taught to follow. If you have been taught that being gay is wrong and you believe it, but still do it, you’re a sinner. Now, if I was brought up in a home with lax rules and ‘come as you are’ principles, I probably would scoff in the face of anyone who told me I was a sinner, simply because my parents didn’t ever tell me that. But the issue that people fail to understand is that it’s all about your conviction.
Even if gay people were allowed to marry, having sex before marriage is yet another sin on its own. So my people, we may be here all day bantering on this issue. Just do you a favour and BE HAPPY!!!
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 15:59This is exactly what has been on my mind. I tend to think that what is good for the straight is good for the gay. If sex before marriage for heterosexual people is the sin, then that’s the sin for gay people. THAT is the sin to me. I don’t see being gay as sinful; it’s the act of hooking up before committing yourself that I regard as sinful.
CeeCee
June 15, 23:22Sexuality, gay or straight is a natural urge much like hunger, sleep. Etc. Its the judeo-Christian&Islamic religions that sought to plave restrictions on the expression of this natural force. Which is why I see the exhortations placed on heterosexuals not to fornicate as ridiculous. Its not possible!! We all know its next to impossible to ‘not fornicate’ whether you’re gay or straight …
trystham
June 14, 21:53Exactement. ‘SIN’ is relative. I remember when God gave dem laws to the Isrealites. He says its to show them different from the people of other nations they’d be passing through. By this, I think what would probably be called sin in Syria would be totally acceptable in…say Egypt. The general hate for homosexuality stems from the percieved unnaturalness of the act in itself
I wonder why I haven’t seen this all day. I guess I’m so used to the Panther’s mentions that I don’t check here on my own.
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 23:07Yea. Lol. I didn’t do any twitter mentions for the day’s posts.
Quarius
June 17, 11:46I see you, jazzman!!
sensuousensei
June 14, 14:39@Marthy: Argumentum ad hominem. You called the commenters ignorant without saying clearly how they are wrong or ignorant. Simply because one has not read a particular book does not mean one cannot or should not REASON.
martinchinagorom@yahoo.com
June 14, 15:45I wonder where you chanced on the name of that particular logical fallacy, and came to apply it to me wrongfully. Don’t even get me started on logic and reasoning. You won’t be able to hold the candle. Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: kitodiariesSent: Saturday, 14 June 2014 10:39 AMTo: martinchinagorom@yahoo.comReply To: kitodiariesSubject: [New comment] Let’s Discuss . . . About Homosexuality As A Sin?
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sensuousensei commented: “@Marthy: Argumentum ad hominem. You called the commenters ignorant without saying clearly how they are wrong or ignorant. Simply because one has not read a particular book does not mean one cannot or should not REASON.”
sensuousensei
June 14, 19:55Hahaha! Amusing. Much barks, no bite. For an intellectual, you shd stick to the arguments and avoid attacks on people. You seem to be hitting everything except the mark. Please I want to get you started on logic and fallacies. Now where is your “start” button?
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 16:03WORD! @sensei.
Lanre Swagg
June 14, 14:48Homosexuals are easier listened to than talked to. It’s very hard to find the homosexual who doesn’t feel the need to validate him/herself by winning an argument, and harder still to find the one who is so much at peace with him/herself and therefore has no need to offer judgment on others ideas.
InLoveWithAPHBoy
June 16, 15:37“Behind Every Argument….Lies One Person Ignorance”
sensuousensei
June 14, 15:08The question is one concerning “sin” and not just right or wrong. A sin as far as i’m concerned refers to that which is considered wrong according to the perspective of a deity or his/her/its religion. Therefore if you do wrong in the eyes of man, you have done wrong and that’s it. if you do wrong in they eyes of god, you have sinned. So for me the question is clear. It is not asking whether homosexuality is right or wrong. It goes beyond that. The question is: how does god see homosexuality? to god, is it right or wrong?
Now there are several deities known to man. If you asking about the Christian or Muslim deities, there is nothing to discuss. Homosexuality is “SIN”.
But thats part one of my answer. The part two would need to be expressed in a full article.
and oh! i aint reading no book before writing it. Thank you.
Absalom
June 14, 15:35Dear Lanre Swagg and Marthy, intellectual snobbery is where you are at the start of a “reasoning career”. You guys have a lot of growing up to do. And we’ll be glad to see you succeed at this. Smh.
John Adewoye
June 14, 16:11Homosexuality is not a sin because real homosexuals did not become homosexual by choice. It is also not a sin because homosexual sex or expression does not harm anyone.
Jesus without a mention of word homosexuality recognized alternative sex orientation as Matthew 19:12…
“There are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Same Matthew and even Luke alluded to the greek word pias in a way suggestive of same-sex relationship. Read more about that in the reference below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality
The article is objective, it arguments for and against.
The bible says you shall know the truth and it shall set you free. My fellow LGBTI readers, “know your truth and let it set you free” .
Many Christian denominations including Catholics have shifted from “learned behavior” to born this way but fall short of promoting dignity and integrity of LGBTI persons by recommending celibacy for their LGBTI members. That recommendation introduced a concept of “flawed God” in my opinion. I am 54 years old. Others have known me and told me I am this way before I could even put a name to it myself. From when I was around 4 or 5 yrs and I loved to cross-dress or played the role of a woman or wished I could become a nun or thinking I would want to be pregnant. I have always felt drawn to men.
I did not choose to be this way! But I am loving being this way because it has its own unique value for my well-being. If being gay is not a nurtured but natural, then it cannot be a sin. Again know your truth, dig to your strength as an LGBTI person and let that set you free. I bet you, when you are free and self-accepting you would have struck a mine of endless joy!
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 16:15Wow. #Amazed
Chizzie
June 14, 16:26I’ve always wondered what the ‘I’ in LGBTI stands for
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 16:30Yes, that one is new to me too.
trystham
June 15, 07:57Funny, I had always ASSUMED being an eunuch was always induced not congenital. Oh well *shrugs*
Deola
June 15, 12:57Speechless
John Adewoye
June 14, 17:02Chizzie, it means lesbian gay bisexual transgender and intersex
Dennis Macauley
June 14, 18:15This martin guy is being condescending! Get your point across without name calling! This is an open forum supposedly for people of like minds. No high horses are needed here
pinkpanthertb
June 14, 19:25I taya o.
kendigin
June 14, 18:15When will people learn that religion is nothing but a tool for control. The concept of sin is ridiculous….if u read the bible, very silly mundane tins such as women wearing trousers and men braiding hair are regarded as sin.
@pinkpanther christianity is obviously a religion, forget what those greedy pastors tell u. Its all just to validate their business.
Homosexuality has nothing to do with religion I.e sin. Sexuality is a par of being human, u don’t choose to be gay or str8. But u can choose to drop all forms of mental and emotional slavery. Death to Religion! Viva Revolucione!!!
sensuousensei
June 15, 12:08*applause*
Rare G
June 14, 20:25Ashimolowo said, “homosexuality is a thing of the mind and the people you hang around with.” I chuckled. Oyakhilome said, “just because you couldn’t overcome a habit & formed a ‘union’ of like minds agitating for equal rights doesn’t make it right.” Adefarasin called it “demon of homosexuality.” The truth is that no heterosexual person can ever understand what it means to be gay,bisexual or otherwise just like you can’t understand the pain of a sickler in crisis or the pangs of childbearing if its not happening to you. Homosexuality is not a sin bkos I didn’t choose to be drawn to guys since I was 15 or have effeminate gait since childhood. In all, I have refused to be brought down by what many think because you and I know we are not demon possessed. Just keep loving the Lord if you ‘re a Christian believer like me and manage your sexuality well. If you can marry a girl, go ahead; if you can’t stay true, find true love and lead a purposeful life. When you are successful, folks wouldn’t care anymore. My German MBA lecturer on cross-cultural management here is married to a Nigerian guy and they are both happy; they both have their PhDs and are doing well. A lot of gay folks don’t go to church, some have turned atheists, others hate God; to all this I say “No Need.” No one can define God or Christianity more than I can for myself coz @ the end of the day, salvation is personal. Keep it up guys; let’s also learn to respect each other’s opinions as future celebs. God bless!
trystham
June 15, 08:12This though…wonderful. I sometimes wondered if it indeed homosexuality were Natural l. I actually had an early start on heterosexual sex. Bin heterosexually active since b4 7. But being among boys in my dorm, I started from admiring their dicks to imagine playing with it, to imagine them sticking it in me. Sometimes I wonder if things will be different if I didn’t go to boarding house. I guess what would be different would be a MUCH later start at proper homosexuaL relationships and its attendant sex. Maybe the pastors really truly can’t understand.
Regal Sweetheart
June 15, 10:59Yaaaay!!! Confirmation gotten! Rare G,we would be better paddies from now….*wink*
CeeCee
June 14, 23:35I was born and raised xtian, but I v grown to see that religion is a bundle of contradictions and a tool for manipulation and domination. I therefore prefer to describe myself nowadays as spiritual but not religious. Our country is packed full of churches and mosques and yet still deteriorating and going down the creeks at an alarming rate. Despite their weekly (friday ir sunday for the Muslims and Christians respectively) dose of “the opium of the masses”, the people are still full of hypocrisy and wickedness while anyone who has observed less religious (and more advanced) parts of the world will immediately see less strife, more harmony, more equity and generally more peaceful and reasonable societies. I therefore without any apologies, prefer not to allow my life be run by outdated theories of dubious origin.
Some people were born gay, some stumble into same sex attractions by accident etc, whatever the story may be, I totally reject the notion that being gay is wrong especially as the basis for this assertion is the words contained in a 4000year old book written by a bunch of jews whose motives and circumstances we cannot even begin to understand nor to recreate today. Additionally, the notion of a loving and benevolent God creating some people gay through no fault if theirs and then condeming them to eternal blazes is in my opinion fatally flawed.
Sexuality is an extremely complex and fluid topic which will probably be a source if controversy for ages to come. Yes, homosexuality is a deviation from the norm, but then look around nature and you will find so many deviations from the norm: blue eyes, left handedness, conjoined twins, albinism, etc. There will always be minority variations from the norm as long as the process of evolution continues. I never chose to be this way, it chose me.
Accept yourself for who you are, love yourself cos no1 else will, figure out how best to exist in whatever circumstances you happen to find yourself and work very hard towards securing some happiness for yourself in a world which seems bent on stripping you of every last shred of joy. Whether or not you choose to believe in religious teachings as to the evil if homosexuality is entirely up to you. For me, am having none of that shit cos I know its a fucking lie!!!
pinkpanthertb
June 15, 04:49CeeCee as always, very on point.
sensuousensei
June 15, 12:12*applause again*
uzzy
June 15, 06:05A sin or an offence against God is when you wrong or hurt your neighbor because your neighbor represents the God which you are seeing, so when you steal from your neighbor, that’s a sin! When you cheat on him, that’s a sin! When you lie against your neighbor, that’s a sin! Because you have wronged him(neighbor) you are invariably sinning against God, but when you genuinely LOVE your neighbor amidst sexual feelings, LOVE not FLIRT around, then how can you be sinning, St Paul rightly puts it that God is Love, if you can’t love your neighbor, then you don’t know God.
With this, “gay rights” are justified by me if they are directed towards good motives, that is why I always advice gays to date, find someone they are in love with and date them, be in a wonderful relationship and if possible seal it off with “MARRIAGE” once there is Love, I believe God will approve; I mean real and genuine LOVE, no cheating, no lies…. Because LOVE conquers all, even heaven! The common trend in the gay world is to hookup with this guy and get laid then move on to the next guy and the trend continues, which is tantamount to the sin of fornication, one of the reasons why the society despises us because they think nothing good can come out from us, in a way it’s our fault because of the way we portray ourselves.
Deola
June 15, 13:04So many peeps be making sense on here.
John
June 15, 06:29Well said Uzzy. AN LGBTI person’s love life is turned over to lust and sin by all kinds of teachings that are contrary to God’s law. It is not love but living in sin when you take a person you are not emotionally committed to as your spouse. Know your truth, pay attention to the impulse of love in you, honor it as it comes.
sensuousensei
June 15, 16:34@pink_aunty: do you see what I talked about in “crooked advantage”? Seriously, the greatest blessing one can have in this world and age is TO BE GAY. As far as I’m concerned, God does not care about the details of how you use your penis. There is a line that seperates the “carnal” from the “spiritual”. “The various uses of the penis” just happens to be on the other side of the line called carnal. Love, joy, peace, forgiveness and kindness. Such are the kind that god is interested in.